BSG S3 3x01 & 3x02 thoughts...

[samvara]

Well, well, well.

Well.

Loved the Kara thread; thought playing the munchkin was an unbearably apt and cruel thing to do. Am interested in where Leoben gets his hardon for Kara – Stockholm Syndrome? I don’t get the little hand hold at the end – this is not the act of a woman who has killed Leoben five times in a row over four months.

*loved* Sharon and Adama. Loved it.

Not too keen on Lee. He is a deeply moral man and for him to just give up and be someone who can only function when he has a war doesn’t do justice to the person I thought he was.

Love Tigh, he’s hard and obsessed and utterly focussed. I don’t like him as a person but the character is great.

Interested in the Cylon take on what their mission is. It sounds like Boomer and Six managed to pitch the end of immediate hostilities but didn’t in any way manage to convey a vision where humans and Cylons actually talk to each other. The Cylons turned up as an invading force and seem to have no concept of humans as potential equals. In which case what on earth are they trying to achieve?

Is the vision of human/Cylon relations where humans behave like Centurions?

They need Adama desperately.

Feel a lot of the war commentary is a bit on the cheap side. We already know this, guys, we’ve watched the Americans doing it for years. We know people are stupid and pretty and short-sighted and that it doesn’t work.

Loved the Roslyn/Zarek exchange

Comments

[creativemeans.livejournal.com]

Agree, agree, agree. Can't wait for the next episode!!

[black-samvara.livejournal.com]

Hell yeah, there's so much going on! I'm really going to enjoy this.

I do feel the parallels with Iraq are pretty darn heavy handed though.

[creativemeans.livejournal.com]

And the way that Baltar doesn't go to the graduation. Is similar to the bombing of Pearl Harbor where it was 'allowed' to happen.

[vegetariansushi.livejournal.com]

Interestingly, I've heard several people argue that the WWII parallels are too heavy-handed.

At this point, my argument is that if you look at almost any modern war -- WWII though current -- they're pulling behaviour from all of them. Not because torture is so right-now in America or because the Nazis had a secret police, but because over and over again people use the same awful, immoral tactics, and that's true if it's Iraq or Vietnam or WWII. I don't think that it's an intentional parallel; it is, as Tolkien says, applicable, not allegorical.

Interesting too that you mentioned Stockholm Syndrome in regards to Leoben, when by the end of the episode I was starting to wonder about it in Starbuck. I can see it going a few ways: one, she's totally playing him; two, she's going all Stockholm and starting to lose her grip on reality (which after four months of this doesn't seem entirely unlikely); three, she's readjusting her priorities and finding a way to bust herself and Kasey out of there. (Okay, I can see it going other ways, too, but those are the fun ones.)

I have a lot of sympathy for Adama (which was predictable) and Ellen Tigh (which was not). I've always enjoyed Ellen's character, but I'm finally starting to really sympathise with her. Also, weirdly, I'm starting to feel bad for Baltar, who's in so far over his head and is so terrified all of the time.

I could do this for HOURS but I will stop. In conclusion: glee, glee, omg glee.

[black-samvara.livejournal.com]

Yeah there was some passionate discussion in the living room and then in the kitchen.

I think what's happening is that the Cylons, being machines are coming in with some assumptions about how things are going to go that are completely out of whack with what we, the audience, are slowly and painfully learning about war and conflict [again]. It's like they're very young and have no social skills. I like the applicable, not allegorical quote, I'd forgotten he said that.

I can't believe Starbuck would go from killing him with a fork to holding hands with him and meaning it so quickly. I think she could possibly fall hard for the munchkin though. She has so much pain!

Yeah, Ellen. Wow. Cavil pointing out her degrading efforts had nothing to do with Tigh being released and everything to do with her being manipulated was sickening.

So many layers of deception: Jammer! Felix! Baltar! Ellen! Starbuck!

[wibble]

[prk.livejournal.com]

Interesting too that you mentioned Stockholm Syndrome in regards to Leoben, when by the end of the episode I was starting to wonder about it in Starbuck.

Speculation was that Leoben developed Stockholm Syndrome from when he was captured and questioned by Starbuck, before being flushed out an airlock.

Hence his current unstable / twisted state of reality, where he's returning the favour.

Given the pain everytime he's killed, and that Starbuck's recycled him five times in four months, he must be getting more and more screwed.

Tori pointed out an interesting point last night. As the individual cylons spend more time amongst humans, they begin to grow emotionally. Sometimes in a 'bad' way, sometimes in a 'good' way. But certainly in a stronger sense than any of the 'pure' cylons 'untainted' by human contact.

I wonder how long until the cylons realise this, and start internal purges...

[black-samvara.livejournal.com]

internal purges

Back on Caprica in Downloaded we never got 3's perspective on what to do with Caprica_6 and Galactica_Boomer. They/Baltar assume(s) she wants to box them and behave accordingly.

I like the idea that as Cylons progress through life-death cycles they can grow progressively more unique. In some cases this probably brings perspective and wisdom but in the case of Leoben he was already a mystic and seems to have imprinted on Starbuck.

In Scar, the raider was getting steadily more cunning and showing up as a personality - which is pretty impressive for a raider.

[vegetariansushi.livejournal.com]

I concur on your Leoben analysis -- I think that the Cylons agree, as well, since when they were all in Baltar's office, we saw every model of Cylon that we're aware of -- Doctor, priest, Xena, Six, Boomer, Doral -- but I'm pretty sure that there was no Leoben. Persona non grata to the Cylons, now?

Also, do you think that she's killed him five times in four months, or do you think that it's four times in four months and the first time was after the interrogation on Galactica?

I almost think that the Cylons have already started internal purges, what with the killing of Caprica Six at the end of 301. We suspected in s2 that they were after boxing her, and since this is the same Three, I wonder if she's tying off a few loose ends.

[shrydar.livejournal.com]

Icon love!

Oh, and yes, Roslyn/Zarek. How long until they're sleeping together? ;-)

[black-samvara.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

You know I've never thought of Roslyn as a sexual being; she's been so busy dying and being an inspirational leader that I can't see it. Pity, Zarek is kinda hot.

[shrydar.livejournal.com]

Oddly, the hottest I've ever seen Roslyn was in a tender moment with Adama when she thought she was only a few weeks from death. Can't find the scene at the moment..

[vegetariansushi.livejournal.com]

I worry that Zarek has just completed his redemption arc, though, and stepped in front of Roslin as the firing squad came, thus saving her at the expense of his own life. I will be cranky if that has happened, but...

[black-samvara.livejournal.com]

That would piss me off! I don't think he's quite that self sacrificing though.

If Roslyn wasn't an utter, utter hardliner before, this will nail it. As the survivor of a mass execution order [signed by Baltar no less] she is going to have so much moral credibility she can hate the Cylons with all her icy heart.

[vegetariansushi.livejournal.com]

You know, I've started to find Baltar sort of sympathetic, actually. He's so clearly in over his head and terrified of everything, you know? I mean, he has to feel so out of control. It's pitiful, in the sense of 'inspiring pity'.

Ellen Tigh is another one who's really grown on me, incidentally. I've liked her since early on, but it's only just recently that I've started actively finding her sympathetic.

[shrydar.livejournal.com]

Noooooo! Don't even think it!
Bad Sushi!

:)

Comments on Comments

[divineway.livejournal.com]

I spent the better part of the hour reading and thinking about the ideas presented in these comments. Frack, this show is so thought provoking. The layers of this show are peeled away like an onion skin  and sometimes tears get shed. 
 
I don’t know where to begin, so I’ll hop in..
 
I remember Leoben being stuck on her right from the beginning - where did that come from?
 
Let’s go back to Flesh and Bone shall we? When Adama sends Starbuck to interrogate Leoben he tells her that he needs to send someone who cannot be easily manipulated. Kara makes a joke to break her uneasiness. Her face showed she was uncomfortable and unsure if she could do it. I found her dis-ease intriguing. I wondered what that was all about. BSG does nothing randomly! At that point, Adama should have sent Lee. Leoben’s charms don’t seem to work well on men.
 
Also, one of the things I’ve noticed about Starbuck is that she wears everything on her sleeve. Early in the series, Tigh is able to push her buttons so quickly; they are transparent. Not every one sees them but the ones who do can quickly manipulate her. She and Tigh are so completely fracked *because* they can see each others demons. 
 
Leoben just looks through her despite her attempts to hide from him. He doesn’t have to know details about her, he can smell her brokenness.  “You Stink” is a fantastic opening line for their interaction.
 
She doesn’t “stink” so bad now, I bet.
 
Do you think the interest Simon took in her in The Farm was because Leoben had flagged her for his special attentions?
 
There’s something about Starbuck that makes her interesting to the Cylons.  I’m going to take a step and say it’s religious. I will take it a step further and theorize God favors Starbuck. She is integral to their survival and evolution. Six tried to kill her on sight. Simon aggressively wanted her to procreate. Boomer was a little fearful of her even though she was carrying *the* Hybrid. Starbuck softens on as time goes by. It’s a subtle transition, but it’s there. Pay close attention to her interactions with Helo after they return from Caprica.
 
Oh I almost forgot in Flesh and Bone, after Roslin shames her for torturing Leoben the first thing she plays is the religious card, anything to keep him alive and is mortified that Roslin throws him out the airlock. What’s going on there?  
 
Layers..
 
Leoben being patient screams psychopath all the way to me. He's *so* obsessed he can't even being to consider the possibility of his vision being wrong. You just -know- that Starbuck is going to hold him in her arms some time in the future, tell him she loves him and it's going to be hideously wrong and not at all what he expects.
 
I have to disagree here. I don’t find him psychopathic, rather a little on the “whoa dude, that’s crazy side.” However, one thing her ‘incarceration” does is keep her out of the insurgency, which could be part of the larger picture. A clear example of this is Caprica Six’s obsession with Gaius. He is a virtual prisoner of the cylons as well. Is she psychopathic? While that is sort of his own doing, they could have replaced him with another human. He is important to them as is Starbuck.
 
 
God, I’ve written so much .Thanks for letting me jump in.  Great thread!!

Re: Comments on Comments

[black-samvara.livejournal.com]

Hi! Welcome to the party.

I'm going to have to go back and watch Flesh and Bone because I have this memory of her going to see Leoben and him already knowing who she was and that being significant. I see his current attachment to her as being a result of their intense exchange.

What I loved about that episode (among many things) is that Starbuck goes from regarding Leoben as a thing, to seeing him as a person. She tries to save his life because she's come to understand that he is alive and he is a person and she values that.

I think back in Flesh and Bone he responded to her being intensely emotional, connecting with him and understanding him by deciding they have this mystical connection to each other.

I also agree with you on her status with the Cylons, I think the Cylons have Plans for Starbuck, I think she is someone on their radar, someone with a Purpose.

My take on Leoben is based on the fact that he has designed this little love-nest and is enacting a relationship at her and has been for four months. He talks to her about how she is going to come to her senses and realise she loves him and it speaks to me of freaky obsession.

Brainwashing usually involves things like changing a persons environment (CHECK), sleep patterns (CHECK), clothes (CHECK), food (CHECK), isolating them (CHECK), exposing them to indoctrination (CHECK).

He isn't relating to her as a person, he's relating to her as a thing. To me that makes the way he treats her really creepy.

This is BEAUTIFULLY ironic given the sequence in Flesh and Bone.

Re: Comments on Comments

[divineway.livejournal.com]

I have to watch Flesh and Bone again, there's so much there that relates here.

I have this memory of her going to see Leoben and him already knowing who she was and that being significant.

Yes, he knew who she was but not what she looked like. I've noticed that civilians don't know who significant people (to us) are. Leoben's reaction to Kara initially is one of genuine "I knew that was you but I wasn't sure."

connecting with him and understanding him by deciding they have this mystical connection to each other.

Is the initial mystical connection not the basis of love. Is it not possible for her to feel for his soul? Kara saw him as a person which could suggest she is capable of loving him. She prayed for him. I found that significant. Who else does she pray for on screen other than herself and now Kayce. That is not to say holding her hostage will result in her loving him. It only winds up with him dead. LOL

I agree that Kara's being brainwashed. That I have no doubt and he does relate to her as a "thing" which puts him on my crazee scale. Her isolation is for a bigger purpose than just brainwashing. I maintain that she is kept there for her own good because of the "plan." That sounds so evil *mwhahahaha*

No, you are not freaking me out! I only hope I am being coherent! BSG tends to make me babble!

Re: Comments on Comments

[black-samvara.livejournal.com]

The coolness of this is that it brings us back to what vegetariansushi and I was on about earlier.

As people, the Cylons are very young and represent a wide range of human behaviours. What I see in Leoben is him getting so hooked on Starbuck's response to him in Flesh and Bone that he has fixated on her.

He's recognised there was a connection and has translated that in his head to there HAVING to be a connection now and always. Ironically, in trying to force it on her he's denying her personhood in exactly the same way she did, right down to the psychological torture.

Darn I love this show.

Re: Comments on Comments

[divineway.livejournal.com]

the Cylons are very young and represent a wide range of human behaviours.

he's denying her personhood in exactly the same way she did

In their youth they are still quite primal. Denying the Kara's personhood goes beyond Leobuck. In ordering the execution they don't see them as people but as things. At any moment, they could go back to the original plan and kill them all. Cavil's suggestion that reducing the human numbers to make them more manageable is scary.

Human's are things, pets even, and some of us Leoben really love our pets.

I totally love this show too, as well as this conversation.

Re: Comments on Comments

[black-samvara.livejournal.com]

I don't think Baltar being a prisoner of the Cylons is a function of Caprica_6's love for Baltar, I think it's a function of him being the President.

On Caprica_6's obsession with Baltar - I haven't seen them interacting with just each other since the Occupation so I've no idea how their current relationship stands. I would like to make a distinction between:

Baltar and Caprica_6
Baltar and Avatar Caprica_6
Baltar and Downloaded Caprica_6

I think they all have very different relationships.

Baltar and Caprica_6is now over two years old and was based on passionate physical love and a growing realisation on her part that she meant it, with all her heart. It was also based on lies.

Baltar and Avatar Caprica_6 was and still is an intensely passionate relationship between Baltar and a woman who knows no fear or doubt and is utterly committed to her vision of her God. She pushed Baltar every second they were together and also kept him sane and helped him survive. She wasn't trying to pretend he was someone she idealised, she knew who he was and what he was like.

Baltar and Downloaded Caprica_6: I've no idea where they stand with each other. The observation so far has only been in formal settings where she hasn't been all that personal and neither was he. Yes, she's trying to protect him.

I think Baltar's heart was broken when Pegasus_6 killed herself and the fact they've been relating to Avatars for a long time has got to get in the way of who they actually are relating to every time they talk. Both of them have changed enormously in the last couple of years.

And now I will stop and let you breath, apologies for obsessed and lengthy responses if you're now freaking out.

Re: Baltar/Six

[divineway.livejournal.com]

Whew, thank you for making the distinction between the Six's. One of the things I dig about Leoben is that I am not seeing multiple versions of him at the moment. It makes him a little easier to get a handle on.

The Six Models.

Is not Caprica6 and Downloaded6 one in the same? That is to say the Six in the miniseries is the same 6 that downloaded in "Downloaded" Omg, I'm dizzy! Thus this is the same 6 he also visualizes in his head. How is it that as soon as Caprica6 shows up the 6 in his head goes away but when she is killed she is there in a flash? Are they not the same on some level.

Baltar loved Gina, Pegasus6, because of Caprica/Avatar6. I can't really explain that one, at the moment. My brain is still spinning trying to manage the number of 6's in my head. LOL

Re: Baltar/Six

[black-samvara.livejournal.com]

Where ARE the other Leoben anyway?

My thoughts on the Six Models...

I'm making this distinction because of the sheer freakin' complexity of their non-linear relationship.

Baltar and Caprica_6 were together on Caprica for an unspecified period of time during which she was a Cylon agent. He thought she was a fabulous lay and she was falling in love with him.

Baltar and Avatar_6. Firstly I have no idea what Avatar_6 actually is. We’ve established she isn’t a chip, that she comes and goes and that she has knowledge that is not available to Baltar’s subconscious (the Cylon device in Galactica and the baby). To me this points to some sort of spirit/avatar – possibly created during the blast on Caprica. I’d also happily go for her being a Cylon God spirit guide that –happens- to look like her. Hell, I’ll go for any whacky theory about now.

They have been together since the attack on Caprica. She is NOT Caprica_6 despite being pretty darn close in personality. For one thing, she doesn’t develop, Baltar is growing and changing all over the place but Avatar_6 remains firms on all counts.

Yes it was interesting that Avatar_6 turned up the moment Downloaded_6 was shot. However, I’m not convinced that Avatar_6’s appearances are conditional on other 6 models not being there in person. He asked Avatar_6 to go away for a while when Pegasus_6 was around and she did. I don’t know if she, Baltar, or some other factor controls it.

Baltar and Downloaded_6 have been apart since Caprica_6 died on Caprica. Yes she is the same woman who died in the blast but she is also a woman who has had a profound realisation about her mission. She has also been relating to Avatar_Baltar whose smooth confidence is nothing like the Baltar we’ve grown to know and pity.

There appears to be no continuity of consciousness between Avatar Caprica_6 and Downloaded_6 as witnessed by her waking up believing Baltar was dead.

This invariably leaves me speculating on what/how Cylon consciousness works and how come they share some memories but not others.

Re: Comments on Comments

[prk.livejournal.com]

Baltar and Avatar Caprica_6 was and still is an intensely passionate relationship between Baltar and a woman who knows no fear or doubt and is utterly committed to her vision of her God. She pushed Baltar every second they were together and also kept him sane and helped him survive. She wasn't trying to pretend he was someone she idealised, she knew who he was and what he was like.

Have we seen Avatar Caprica_6 and Downloaded Caprica_6 in proximity?

It seemed to me, that we only saw Avatar C6 after downloaded C6 was shot.

Re: Comments on Comments

[prk.livejournal.com]

Okay, you've already noticed this. I knew I should have read ahead before replying.

I think it quite significant that we didn't see Avatar C6 until Downloaded C6 had left the building.

We also haven't heard anything more about Downloaded C6's Baltar Avatar.

I wonder if the Baltar Avatar will be present after another download or not.