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Well, well, well.
Well.
Loved the Kara thread; thought playing the munchkin was an unbearably apt and cruel thing to do. Am interested in where Leoben gets his hardon for Kara – Stockholm Syndrome? I don’t get the little hand hold at the end – this is not the act of a woman who has killed Leoben five times in a row over four months.
*loved* Sharon and Adama. Loved it.
Not too keen on Lee. He is a deeply moral man and for him to just give up and be someone who can only function when he has a war doesn’t do justice to the person I thought he was.
Love Tigh, he’s hard and obsessed and utterly focussed. I don’t like him as a person but the character is great.
Interested in the Cylon take on what their mission is. It sounds like Boomer and Six managed to pitch the end of immediate hostilities but didn’t in any way manage to convey a vision where humans and Cylons actually talk to each other. The Cylons turned up as an invading force and seem to have no concept of humans as potential equals. In which case what on earth are they trying to achieve?
Is the vision of human/Cylon relations where humans behave like Centurions?
They need Adama desperately.
Feel a lot of the war commentary is a bit on the cheap side. We already know this, guys, we’ve watched the Americans doing it for years. We know people are stupid and pretty and short-sighted and that it doesn’t work.
Loved the Roslyn/Zarek exchange
Well.
Loved the Kara thread; thought playing the munchkin was an unbearably apt and cruel thing to do. Am interested in where Leoben gets his hardon for Kara – Stockholm Syndrome? I don’t get the little hand hold at the end – this is not the act of a woman who has killed Leoben five times in a row over four months.
*loved* Sharon and Adama. Loved it.
Not too keen on Lee. He is a deeply moral man and for him to just give up and be someone who can only function when he has a war doesn’t do justice to the person I thought he was.
Love Tigh, he’s hard and obsessed and utterly focussed. I don’t like him as a person but the character is great.
Interested in the Cylon take on what their mission is. It sounds like Boomer and Six managed to pitch the end of immediate hostilities but didn’t in any way manage to convey a vision where humans and Cylons actually talk to each other. The Cylons turned up as an invading force and seem to have no concept of humans as potential equals. In which case what on earth are they trying to achieve?
Is the vision of human/Cylon relations where humans behave like Centurions?
They need Adama desperately.
Feel a lot of the war commentary is a bit on the cheap side. We already know this, guys, we’ve watched the Americans doing it for years. We know people are stupid and pretty and short-sighted and that it doesn’t work.
Loved the Roslyn/Zarek exchange
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Also, do you think that she's killed him five times in four months, or do you think that it's four times in four months and the first time was after the interrogation on Galactica?
I almost think that the Cylons have already started internal purges, what with the killing of Caprica Six at the end of 301. We suspected in s2 that they were after boxing her, and since this is the same Three, I wonder if she's tying off a few loose ends.
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I kinda assumed he meant recently. I'm also struggling to remember if it was Starbuck who actually opened the airlock on him. Darn this being at work thingy. I want to go back and rewatch that episode now. I remember Leoben being stuck on her right from the beginning - where did that come from?
The internal purge thingy is going to be very interesting. Leoben was back in a matter of hours, will Caprica_6 get resurrected so quickly?
Boxing - it was Baltar who brought it up and we have no idea how reliable a narrator he is. Not that I'm complaining; it worked beautifully as a plot device and Caprica_6 thought it was a completely reasonable hypothesis.
Cylon on Cylon violence is going to be plain weird, I mean they can cause physical suffering but really, killing one is just putting them out of the game for a time period [which they may also be able to influence]. For Cylon in-fighting it's going to be about having the access to influence events and about having the ability to decide who gets resurrected and who gets boxed.
Are they really a bunch of individuals who; up till now; have been so similar that they have managed to function as a sort of 'hive'?
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You're right that it wasn't Starbuck who opened the airlock; I hadn't thought of that.
Was Leoben really back in a few hours? I somehow had the impression that it was longer than that, a day or two, but I could be wrong -- I watched it at like three a.m. because the baby had been up forever, but I was desperate to watch. I'm sure that Caprica Six will be back sooner or later, but sort of wonder if they're going to drag it out, you know?
I think that the Cylons, given the opportunity, will develop very different personalities and be no more alike than two given humans. It seems to be what we've been shown so far, for the most part. Until they started interacting with the humans, all Cylons had more or less the same experiences, and now all of a sudden they're not, and it's causing dissent.
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That's certainly the impression I got.
Long enough for Starbuck to finish her dinner (what a moment that was) and then wait a bit.
But certainly that night, as Leoben left her with the knowledge that she'd be sleeping in the same building as his corpse.
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I want a million icons of the dinner scene, though I can't think of a way to capture the brilliance of it. Also, the OPENING, with the heartbeat and the flashes of video, was just stunning.
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The intro was great like that, I had this sense of tension and activity and drama right from the start.
I can't think of a way to capture the dinner scene either, it was visual but the context was so stark.
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The editing on this show is just amazing, all across the boards. I keep being stunned by it, but the opening sequence, the supper, and then the sort of extra-contrasting, super-saturated Cylons-attacking sequences just kill me.
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It was slightly weird, I get totally hyped up about Supernatural but after Occupation and Precipice we were hot to discuss but also exhausted!
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I'm trying to get into Supernatural since everyone I know is into it, but I've seen a handful (three?) episodes and so far just don't see the appeal. I fear that something in my brain is broken.
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Maybe for 304, though? That'd be seriously the best thing ever.
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Hey maybe some of the five remaining human models are off doing something non human/Cylon war related. Maybe it's an obsession of only part of the Cylon race and it's actually a subset of a much larger Cylon culture.
Do you think the interest Simon took in her in The Farm was because Leoben had flagged her for his special attentions?
I'd always wondered why the Cylons seemed to be taking a special interest in her and I'd gotten the impression Loeben had heard about her before they physically met on the Galactica.
As to how long it took I'd have to watch it again but my impression was that the action in the all threads was happening over a reasonably short period of time and that he turned up again later on the same night.
It's hard watching them all being so small, petty and cruel after having seen such extremes of goodness as well.
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I love, love love the idea of a larger Cylon culture, though I'm not sure that I buy it. I could see the other five models working on Caprica, though, or something like that. Also, I was tossing around ideas earlier, and we got to wondering if the Cylons even -- I mean, do Cylons automatically recognise all other Cylons? It would actually benefit them not to recognise the ones who are infiltrating humans and that sort of thing, so what if only a few models of the infiltrators were produced at first? I want badly for there to be a reason other than dramatic tension that we haven't seen the other five models at all.
I got the impression that Leoben had heard about her before Galactica, too; he knew way too much about her for it to be guesswork or anything, you know? It had to have been very specific research. It makes me wonder, though, if Six thinks that Gaius is foretold in the Cylon mythos, maybe Starbuck is, too. Leoben is something of a mystic anyhow, more so than even Six's enigmacy. I certainly don't think that Gaius was an unplanned target, and I don't think that Starbuck is either, even if I can't quite come up with the reasons for it yet. There has to be something.
Majority opinion seems to be that it was just a short while before he reappeared, so I probably just misread it -- I suppose that's what I get for watching things in the wee hours of the morning.
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The purpose of making 12 models was never explained, I propose they all exist to explore slightly different aspects of 'humanity' and as such cover different age, race, sex and obsessions. This would mean that there would be the ones who care deeply about humanity in one way or another (whether to deliver Gods Wrath or Love or just to play with them) and other Cylons who, by the nature of their design have slightly different priorities.
Hrm.
Ron Moore says (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylons#Humanoid_Cylons) that "The idea is not that there was likely an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these models of Cylon were sort of developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said "You know what? There's really only 12 of you." If these are the 12, and sort of if you look at them they each represent different archetypes of what humanity is."
Which should mean that we can apply archetypes to the models - how would you characterise them?
Gina/Shelley Godfrey/Caprica Six - passionate and religious
Sharon Valerii - empathetic and loyal
Leoben Conoy - mystical and obsessed
Aaron Doral - intellectual and manipulative
Simon - practical and scientific
Brother Cavil - Machiavellian agnostic cynic
D'Anna Biers - aggressive and idealistic
Starbuck - Yeah I had that impression too, like they were somehow aware of her and thought she was special.
Hey sleep is important!
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Do you think that Biers is idealistic? I think that she's certainly the most aggressive, and also the most manipulative, but I'm not sure that I see her as any kind of an idealist.
Cavil (who I can't stop calling 'Al' in my head) is the most cynical, and -- you're right, really, Machiavellian is the exact word.
I'm not sure that I think that Doral is all that manipulative. I almost think that he's sincere in what he's saying, that he at least believes in it. I'd almost call him idealistic.
I don't feel like we have enough on Simon. He's strangely weak -- Starbuck had major surgery and was still able to take him down, and it's been well established that she can't take down a Six when she's running on full. He's also very... He seems more removed than the others, somehow? But possibly that's only because we've only really seen him acting in a hospital setting.
Six is passionate and religious, but I read her almost like she has a real need to be loved, the way that a human would want love and approval. Same with Sharon, really, though Sharon's obviously less religious, but they both seem to want to feel like they're a part of a collective or at least a small group that really cares about them as individuals, not just as part of some sort of larger consciousness.
And then Leoben. Obsessive, and dedicated, and something of a mystic. Unendingly patient -- it seems like he remains patient far past the point that most Cylons (or humans, for that matter) would have resorted to violence. And I think that's where he's scary, really, that he has the patience to just do it over and over and over again to wear someone down.
Another theory from earlier was that they get progressively more human as they get higher in number. Thirteen is Hera, half human, half Cylon. We've only got numbers for three, five, six, and eight, but I'd argue that of them, Biers seems the least human and Sharon the most. Cavil would be lower, maybe even a two, Simon maybe four, Leoben seven or nine. Six doesn't quite get the nuances of human behaviour, it seems, or understand how they work. Sharon clearly does, though, and I think that Leoben's a step or two above Six... Probably crap, but entertaining for a while.
I just want to know what, exactly, is special about Starbuck and Gaius. It can't just be that they're the easiest to get to, you know? I just can't find the common thread yet.
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D'Anna Biers - I'm pulling this from having seen has as an investigative journalist (admittedly playing a role) where she was passionate, committed and pushing for truth. As an agent in 'evaluating' Caprica_6 and Galactica_Sharon trying to make sure Cylon isn't 'contaminated' and as a decision maker in the Cylon policy_pool - I'm still trying to get a handle on her in the current role.
Doral - I'm torn. He's softly spoken and all but remember him in the pilot undermining Roslyn? Also what he said to Jammer about the temple massacre was utter, utter crap. The Centurions lost control? What? Centurions? The scenes in the webisodes spoke to me of being profoundly manipulative.
You're dead right about Simon, we just don't have enough to go on. The fact he tried to talk to Starbuck about her father and about her fear of motherhood could have been a form of complex sadism or of a genuine desire to help. Also he's a doctor - because he wants to help people? - because he wants to study them? - because he likes seeing beings in pain?
Six and Sharon need love - yes I think so too but they need it in very different ways. Six is about passionate love between her and Baltar and passionate love between her and God. Sharon is about deep loyalty and shared understanding.
Leoben being patient screams psychopath all the way to me. He's *so* obsessed he can't even being to consider the possibility of his vision being wrong. You just -know- that Starbuck is going to hold him in her arms some time in the future, tell him she loves him and it's going to be hideously wrong and not at all what he expects.
Whee!
I've been kicking around the same idea, I read somewhere that Six was named deliberately but the rest were random and I can't remember if it was a reputable source or not. It works for Biers, Six and Sharon - they seem to be in a empathetic sequence, I'm just not sure where to place the men.
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I totally agree on Leoben's vision -- it'll come true, but not at all the way that he wants it to. I can only see bad things coming from that particular setup, and I have to admit that I am GLEEFUL about them. Um, because apparently I like to -- yeah, I don't know.
I'm not totally sure where to place the men on the empathetic scale either, but I want it to fit, because it's one of those ideas that just makes me creeped out and happy. I mean, think how good at being human Sharon is -- imagine eleven or twelve. I want the numbers to have some sort of meaning, I can't help it.
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It doesn't follow that Ron Moore is using the same list we've got - they all list positive qualities, I'd like to see the matching 'dark side' with a little more emphasis on obsessive tendencies.
Me too - GLEE!
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I bet that we could start compiling a list of the darker sides of the archetypes if we wanted to -- some of the positives have a very obvious inverse (take charge attitude = domineering, willing to take risks can become unreasonably risky when there's no need for it...) and there has to be a list of negative archetypal characteristics out there somewhere, doesn't there?
GLEE, yes.
Also, hey, apparently it is irritating to some people that I never post this sort of meta on my own journal, so I may toss some of my comments up there at some point in the next day or two. Would you mind if I summarised some of your comments (or posted them fulltext, if you'd rather) to give context to some of the more wide-ranging ones? I was unaware that anyone was interested in reading this sort of thing, but since I've got BSG meta spread across three journals now (none my own journals, sadly) I guess I should consolidate.
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Go on - you know you want to :p
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Biers is either the ruler or the hero -- thus far, I'm leaning towards ruler, but can see both.
Boomer's the regular gal, I think. I was tempted to say the innocent, but that's really just the Boomer-Valerii one, not the standard model eight.
Cavil is probably the outlaw, actually, since he's atheistic and cynical compared to the traditional cylon outlook, and he seems to be somewhat less tolerant of -- well, everything.
Doral -- I could see him as a ruler or a creator, actually, so that and Biers are sort of intertwined. She seems very much in charge, but he seems to be the one sort of -- sowing the seeds of things, really, so I suppose that's creator territory.
Leoben is the magician. He has to be. The perpetual rebirth, the visions, his attempts at creating memories and moments with Starbuck...
Simon only really works as the caregiver, I think, since that's the entirety of his personality as presented to us thus far.
Six is the lover, obviously; I can't even think of anything else that'd work for her.
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good thing i wasn't hoping to get any work done tonight, eh?
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Hrm, I sound vaguely professional - something must be wrong.
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