samvara | BSG S3 3x01 & 3x02 thoughts...

Agree, agree, agree. Can't wait for the next episode!!

Hell yeah, there's so much going on! I'm really going to enjoy this.

I do feel the parallels with Iraq are pretty darn heavy handed though.

And the way that Baltar doesn't go to the graduation. Is similar to the bombing of Pearl Harbor where it was 'allowed' to happen.

Interestingly, I've heard several people argue that the WWII parallels are too heavy-handed.

At this point, my argument is that if you look at almost any modern war -- WWII though current -- they're pulling behaviour from all of them. Not because torture is so right-now in America or because the Nazis had a secret police, but because over and over again people use the same awful, immoral tactics, and that's true if it's Iraq or Vietnam or WWII. I don't think that it's an intentional parallel; it is, as Tolkien says, applicable, not allegorical.

Interesting too that you mentioned Stockholm Syndrome in regards to Leoben, when by the end of the episode I was starting to wonder about it in Starbuck. I can see it going a few ways: one, she's totally playing him; two, she's going all Stockholm and starting to lose her grip on reality (which after four months of this doesn't seem entirely unlikely); three, she's readjusting her priorities and finding a way to bust herself and Kasey out of there. (Okay, I can see it going other ways, too, but those are the fun ones.)

I have a lot of sympathy for Adama (which was predictable) and Ellen Tigh (which was not). I've always enjoyed Ellen's character, but I'm finally starting to really sympathise with her. Also, weirdly, I'm starting to feel bad for Baltar, who's in so far over his head and is so terrified all of the time.

I could do this for HOURS but I will stop. In conclusion: glee, glee, omg glee.

Yeah there was some passionate discussion in the living room and then in the kitchen.

I think what's happening is that the Cylons, being machines are coming in with some assumptions about how things are going to go that are completely out of whack with what we, the audience, are slowly and painfully learning about war and conflict [again]. It's like they're very young and have no social skills. I like the applicable, not allegorical quote, I'd forgotten he said that.

I can't believe Starbuck would go from killing him with a fork to holding hands with him and meaning it so quickly. I think she could possibly fall hard for the munchkin though. She has so much pain!

Yeah, Ellen. Wow. Cavil pointing out her degrading efforts had nothing to do with Tigh being released and everything to do with her being manipulated was sickening.

So many layers of deception: Jammer! Felix! Baltar! Ellen! Starbuck!

[wibble]

Interesting too that you mentioned Stockholm Syndrome in regards to Leoben, when by the end of the episode I was starting to wonder about it in Starbuck.

Speculation was that Leoben developed Stockholm Syndrome from when he was captured and questioned by Starbuck, before being flushed out an airlock.

Hence his current unstable / twisted state of reality, where he's returning the favour.

Given the pain everytime he's killed, and that Starbuck's recycled him five times in four months, he must be getting more and more screwed.

Tori pointed out an interesting point last night. As the individual cylons spend more time amongst humans, they begin to grow emotionally. Sometimes in a 'bad' way, sometimes in a 'good' way. But certainly in a stronger sense than any of the 'pure' cylons 'untainted' by human contact.

I wonder how long until the cylons realise this, and start internal purges...

internal purges

Back on Caprica in Downloaded we never got 3's perspective on what to do with Caprica_6 and Galactica_Boomer. They/Baltar assume(s) she wants to box them and behave accordingly.

I like the idea that as Cylons progress through life-death cycles they can grow progressively more unique. In some cases this probably brings perspective and wisdom but in the case of Leoben he was already a mystic and seems to have imprinted on Starbuck.

In Scar, the raider was getting steadily more cunning and showing up as a personality - which is pretty impressive for a raider.

I concur on your Leoben analysis -- I think that the Cylons agree, as well, since when they were all in Baltar's office, we saw every model of Cylon that we're aware of -- Doctor, priest, Xena, Six, Boomer, Doral -- but I'm pretty sure that there was no Leoben. Persona non grata to the Cylons, now?

Also, do you think that she's killed him five times in four months, or do you think that it's four times in four months and the first time was after the interrogation on Galactica?

I almost think that the Cylons have already started internal purges, what with the killing of Caprica Six at the end of 301. We suspected in s2 that they were after boxing her, and since this is the same Three, I wonder if she's tying off a few loose ends.

Oooh good point, I had noticed that he wasn't in with the other Cylons but had assumed he was off being neurotic at Starbuck and didn't care. Them shunning him because he's gone all twisted and they don't understand him makes a lot of sense!

I kinda assumed he meant recently. I'm also struggling to remember if it was Starbuck who actually opened the airlock on him. Darn this being at work thingy. I want to go back and rewatch that episode now. I remember Leoben being stuck on her right from the beginning - where did that come from?

The internal purge thingy is going to be very interesting. Leoben was back in a matter of hours, will Caprica_6 get resurrected so quickly?

Boxing - it was Baltar who brought it up and we have no idea how reliable a narrator he is. Not that I'm complaining; it worked beautifully as a plot device and Caprica_6 thought it was a completely reasonable hypothesis.

Cylon on Cylon violence is going to be plain weird, I mean they can cause physical suffering but really, killing one is just putting them out of the game for a time period [which they may also be able to influence]. For Cylon in-fighting it's going to be about having the access to influence events and about having the ability to decide who gets resurrected and who gets boxed.

Are they really a bunch of individuals who; up till now; have been so similar that they have managed to function as a sort of 'hive'?

Re: Leoben: I thought at first that he was just busy, but then I wondered why there wasn't even another version of him -- it's not like every Leoben is off being crazy with Starbuck, so where are the others? I can't read it as anything but an intentional shunning.

You're right that it wasn't Starbuck who opened the airlock; I hadn't thought of that.

Was Leoben really back in a few hours? I somehow had the impression that it was longer than that, a day or two, but I could be wrong -- I watched it at like three a.m. because the baby had been up forever, but I was desperate to watch. I'm sure that Caprica Six will be back sooner or later, but sort of wonder if they're going to drag it out, you know?

I think that the Cylons, given the opportunity, will develop very different personalities and be no more alike than two given humans. It seems to be what we've been shown so far, for the most part. Until they started interacting with the humans, all Cylons had more or less the same experiences, and now all of a sudden they're not, and it's causing dissent.

Was Leoben really back in a few hours?

That's certainly the impression I got.

Long enough for Starbuck to finish her dinner (what a moment that was) and then wait a bit.

But certainly that night, as Leoben left her with the knowledge that she'd be sleeping in the same building as his corpse.

The whole thing was brilliant; the wiping of the hands on the carpet; the way she daintily cut a bite sized piece and ate it with the fork... so civilised and so brutal.

Good points, all of them. I watched it far later than I should've been up, so feel like I maybe didn't catch everything. I mean to rewatch, but have to find the time first.

I want a million icons of the dinner scene, though I can't think of a way to capture the brilliance of it. Also, the OPENING, with the heartbeat and the flashes of video, was just stunning.

[grin] We watched them in the afternoon with pauses to discuss so we're fairly tanked up right now.

The intro was great like that, I had this sense of tension and activity and drama right from the start.

I can't think of a way to capture the dinner scene either, it was visual but the context was so stark.

I'm so fantastically jealous that y'all have, like, a watching party, because I'm on my own unless I make my roommate watch it with me (which I did, but she'd never seen any before, and that was -- possibly not my best ever decision).

The editing on this show is just amazing, all across the boards. I keep being stunned by it, but the opening sequence, the supper, and then the sort of extra-contrasting, super-saturated Cylons-attacking sequences just kill me.

[grin] We could Skype you in for the conversations! So long as we start watching around the same time it would be easy.

It was slightly weird, I get totally hyped up about Supernatural but after Occupation and Precipice we were hot to discuss but also exhausted!

Ha! That'd be awesome. We should try that sometime, really, because it has potential for hilarity.

I'm trying to get into Supernatural since everyone I know is into it, but I've seen a handful (three?) episodes and so far just don't see the appeal. I fear that something in my brain is broken.

Woo! We'll let you know what time/when we're watching the next installment. Might not be this weekend, we have

japester back in town and there are partying plans afoot.

ascetic_hedony showed me the pilot to Supernatural and I thought 'eh,' then he played me a couple of episodes and I went 'hmm,' then I got sick, mainlined the entire first season in about 2 days and fell passionately in love. I'm totally in it for the angst ridden brother interactions, it fills me with glee watching them love each other, so much, so badly, and yet not.

I'm not going to be here this weekend anyhow -- I'm taking a trip back to Ohio to see my parents and granddad before winter comes, because a meter of snow and a seven hour drive are not a fun combination. (Plus no one has time off then, and I have to move on January, so...)

Maybe for 304, though? That'd be seriously the best thing ever.

Excellent - we'll talk details leter in the week?

That would, I think, be fucking excellent.

Shunning: maybe the Leoben's aren't politically minded? I'm not rejecting your argument, just kicking stuff around.

Hey maybe some of the five remaining human models are off doing something non human/Cylon war related. Maybe it's an obsession of only part of the Cylon race and it's actually a subset of a much larger Cylon culture.

Do you think the interest Simon took in her in The Farm was because Leoben had flagged her for his special attentions?

I'd always wondered why the Cylons seemed to be taking a special interest in her and I'd gotten the impression Loeben had heard about her before they physically met on the Galactica.

As to how long it took I'd have to watch it again but my impression was that the action in the all threads was happening over a reasonably short period of time and that he turned up again later on the same night.

It's hard watching them all being so small, petty and cruel after having seen such extremes of goodness as well.

Re: Shunning: I'd buy that if he weren't the only one missing, but every other model is represented, even the ones we've only seen a few minutes of (Simon). Some of them are even there in plural. So it feels more intentional than that to me, somehow.

I love, love love the idea of a larger Cylon culture, though I'm not sure that I buy it. I could see the other five models working on Caprica, though, or something like that. Also, I was tossing around ideas earlier, and we got to wondering if the Cylons even -- I mean, do Cylons automatically recognise all other Cylons? It would actually benefit them not to recognise the ones who are infiltrating humans and that sort of thing, so what if only a few models of the infiltrators were produced at first? I want badly for there to be a reason other than dramatic tension that we haven't seen the other five models at all.

I got the impression that Leoben had heard about her before Galactica, too; he knew way too much about her for it to be guesswork or anything, you know? It had to have been very specific research. It makes me wonder, though, if Six thinks that Gaius is foretold in the Cylon mythos, maybe Starbuck is, too. Leoben is something of a mystic anyhow, more so than even Six's enigmacy. I certainly don't think that Gaius was an unplanned target, and I don't think that Starbuck is either, even if I can't quite come up with the reasons for it yet. There has to be something.

Majority opinion seems to be that it was just a short while before he reappeared, so I probably just misread it -- I suppose that's what I get for watching things in the wee hours of the morning.

I hear ya, he's not represented and there has to be a reason. Actually a Leoben -was- in the pilot in the group that visited the supply depot so he has been seen doing group decision making/policy before.

The purpose of making 12 models was never explained, I propose they all exist to explore slightly different aspects of 'humanity' and as such cover different age, race, sex and obsessions. This would mean that there would be the ones who care deeply about humanity in one way or another (whether to deliver Gods Wrath or Love or just to play with them) and other Cylons who, by the nature of their design have slightly different priorities.

Hrm.

Ron Moore says (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylons#Humanoid_Cylons) that "The idea is not that there was likely an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these models of Cylon were sort of developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said "You know what? There's really only 12 of you." If these are the 12, and sort of if you look at them they each represent different archetypes of what humanity is."

Which should mean that we can apply archetypes to the models - how would you characterise them?

Gina/Shelley Godfrey/Caprica Six - passionate and religious
Sharon Valerii - empathetic and loyal
Leoben Conoy - mystical and obsessed
Aaron Doral - intellectual and manipulative
Simon - practical and scientific
Brother Cavil - Machiavellian agnostic cynic
D'Anna Biers - aggressive and idealistic

Starbuck - Yeah I had that impression too, like they were somehow aware of her and thought she was special.

Hey sleep is important!

Sleep's important, I guess, but it seems like I have the option of doing things half-assed and sleepy or not doing them at all, so I generally take the first option and hope for the best.

Do you think that Biers is idealistic? I think that she's certainly the most aggressive, and also the most manipulative, but I'm not sure that I see her as any kind of an idealist.
Cavil (who I can't stop calling 'Al' in my head) is the most cynical, and -- you're right, really, Machiavellian is the exact word.
I'm not sure that I think that Doral is all that manipulative. I almost think that he's sincere in what he's saying, that he at least believes in it. I'd almost call him idealistic.
I don't feel like we have enough on Simon. He's strangely weak -- Starbuck had major surgery and was still able to take him down, and it's been well established that she can't take down a Six when she's running on full. He's also very... He seems more removed than the others, somehow? But possibly that's only because we've only really seen him acting in a hospital setting.
Six is passionate and religious, but I read her almost like she has a real need to be loved, the way that a human would want love and approval. Same with Sharon, really, though Sharon's obviously less religious, but they both seem to want to feel like they're a part of a collective or at least a small group that really cares about them as individuals, not just as part of some sort of larger consciousness.
And then Leoben. Obsessive, and dedicated, and something of a mystic. Unendingly patient -- it seems like he remains patient far past the point that most Cylons (or humans, for that matter) would have resorted to violence. And I think that's where he's scary, really, that he has the patience to just do it over and over and over again to wear someone down.

Another theory from earlier was that they get progressively more human as they get higher in number. Thirteen is Hera, half human, half Cylon. We've only got numbers for three, five, six, and eight, but I'd argue that of them, Biers seems the least human and Sharon the most. Cavil would be lower, maybe even a two, Simon maybe four, Leoben seven or nine. Six doesn't quite get the nuances of human behaviour, it seems, or understand how they work. Sharon clearly does, though, and I think that Leoben's a step or two above Six... Probably crap, but entertaining for a while.

I just want to know what, exactly, is special about Starbuck and Gaius. It can't just be that they're the easiest to get to, you know? I just can't find the common thread yet.

I'd like to refine the definitions against a pre-existing list of archetypes because I'm like that. The list I did up there is me knocking them out at work while running Office of Energy Invoice reports and reading the Impromptu Administrator's Guide.

D'Anna Biers - I'm pulling this from having seen has as an investigative journalist (admittedly playing a role) where she was passionate, committed and pushing for truth. As an agent in 'evaluating' Caprica_6 and Galactica_Sharon trying to make sure Cylon isn't 'contaminated' and as a decision maker in the Cylon policy_pool - I'm still trying to get a handle on her in the current role.

Doral - I'm torn. He's softly spoken and all but remember him in the pilot undermining Roslyn? Also what he said to Jammer about the temple massacre was utter, utter crap. The Centurions lost control? What? Centurions? The scenes in the webisodes spoke to me of being profoundly manipulative.

You're dead right about Simon, we just don't have enough to go on. The fact he tried to talk to Starbuck about her father and about her fear of motherhood could have been a form of complex sadism or of a genuine desire to help. Also he's a doctor - because he wants to help people? - because he wants to study them? - because he likes seeing beings in pain?

Six and Sharon need love - yes I think so too but they need it in very different ways. Six is about passionate love between her and Baltar and passionate love between her and God. Sharon is about deep loyalty and shared understanding.

Leoben being patient screams psychopath all the way to me. He's *so* obsessed he can't even being to consider the possibility of his vision being wrong. You just -know- that Starbuck is going to hold him in her arms some time in the future, tell him she loves him and it's going to be hideously wrong and not at all what he expects.

Whee!

I've been kicking around the same idea, I read somewhere that Six was named deliberately but the rest were random and I can't remember if it was a reputable source or not. It works for Biers, Six and Sharon - they seem to be in a empathetic sequence, I'm just not sure where to place the men.

Good point about Doral undermining Roslin. I sort of feel like that puts him in Creatorville, though, sowing the seeds of dissent, creating the spirit of resistance, I guess.

I totally agree on Leoben's vision -- it'll come true, but not at all the way that he wants it to. I can only see bad things coming from that particular setup, and I have to admit that I am GLEEFUL about them. Um, because apparently I like to -- yeah, I don't know.

I'm not totally sure where to place the men on the empathetic scale either, but I want it to fit, because it's one of those ideas that just makes me creeped out and happy. I mean, think how good at being human Sharon is -- imagine eleven or twelve. I want the numbers to have some sort of meaning, I can't help it.

You realise I'm going to have to go off and draw up a grid now?

It doesn't follow that Ron Moore is using the same list we've got - they all list positive qualities, I'd like to see the matching 'dark side' with a little more emphasis on obsessive tendencies.

Me too - GLEE!

Ooh, yes, grids! do you want me to do one in Photoshop? We can make tickyboxes and everything?

I bet that we could start compiling a list of the darker sides of the archetypes if we wanted to -- some of the positives have a very obvious inverse (take charge attitude = domineering, willing to take risks can become unreasonably risky when there's no need for it...) and there has to be a list of negative archetypal characteristics out there somewhere, doesn't there?

GLEE, yes.

Also, hey, apparently it is irritating to some people that I never post this sort of meta on my own journal, so I may toss some of my comments up there at some point in the next day or two. Would you mind if I summarised some of your comments (or posted them fulltext, if you'd rather) to give context to some of the more wide-ranging ones? I was unaware that anyone was interested in reading this sort of thing, but since I've got BSG meta spread across three journals now (none my own journals, sadly) I guess I should consolidate.

*rofl* This does rather lend itself to some sort of poll / diagrammatic representation doesn't it? Go for it - don't if you need sleep though because I'll probably do some puttering tonight and we might want to get a little bit clearer on our categories before working up something massive.

Link, quote and/or summarise away, I'm all for the sharing.

I'm seriously exactly OCD enough to become obsessed with which cylon is which archetype, and then trying to figure out who the corresponding humans would be.

Definitely need to be clearer on our categories, but it can't hurt to start making lists, can it? I'm still chatting with Cath and trying to get some webstuff done, but will probably play with this in my spare time tomorrow. Yay, obsessive meta!

12 Archetypes (http://www.brand.com/arche.htm)

Go on - you know you want to :p

Okay, so who are yours from that list, then?

Biers is either the ruler or the hero -- thus far, I'm leaning towards ruler, but can see both.

Boomer's the regular gal, I think. I was tempted to say the innocent, but that's really just the Boomer-Valerii one, not the standard model eight.

Cavil is probably the outlaw, actually, since he's atheistic and cynical compared to the traditional cylon outlook, and he seems to be somewhat less tolerant of -- well, everything.

Doral -- I could see him as a ruler or a creator, actually, so that and Biers are sort of intertwined. She seems very much in charge, but he seems to be the one sort of -- sowing the seeds of things, really, so I suppose that's creator territory.

Leoben is the magician. He has to be. The perpetual rebirth, the visions, his attempts at creating memories and moments with Starbuck...

Simon only really works as the caregiver, I think, since that's the entirety of his personality as presented to us thus far.

Six is the lover, obviously; I can't even think of anything else that'd work for her.

[evil laugh] (http://www.iamuniversity.org/graphics/12archetypes/charts.html) I found a list with a higher and lower side. I think it's going home with me.

*Goes to list*

good thing i wasn't hoping to get any work done tonight, eh?

I'm alternating between running some very late data extracts that chew up FAR too much CPU power and doing tests on a software upgrade which I can't do at the same time so I alternate. God I miss my UAT machine.

Hrm, I sound vaguely professional - something must be wrong.

I'm working in Photoshop, doing a mockup of a site design for Stephen and making a handful of icons for Cathy. Since this computer is a pathetic piece of shit and it's taking photoshop upwards of two minutes to render a 2x400px LINE, I'm also trying to find the flaws in the code on Elaine's page, playing guess the Cylon, and harrassing Cath at work.

Icon love!

Oh, and yes, Roslyn/Zarek. How long until they're sleeping together? ;-)

Thanks!

You know I've never thought of Roslyn as a sexual being; she's been so busy dying and being an inspirational leader that I can't see it. Pity, Zarek is kinda hot.

Oddly, the hottest I've ever seen Roslyn was in a tender moment with Adama when she thought she was only a few weeks from death. Can't find the scene at the moment..

I worry that Zarek has just completed his redemption arc, though, and stepped in front of Roslin as the firing squad came, thus saving her at the expense of his own life. I will be cranky if that has happened, but...

That would piss me off! I don't think he's quite that self sacrificing though.

If Roslyn wasn't an utter, utter hardliner before, this will nail it. As the survivor of a mass execution order [signed by Baltar no less] she is going to have so much moral credibility she can hate the Cylons with all her icy heart.

You know, I've started to find Baltar sort of sympathetic, actually. He's so clearly in over his head and terrified of everything, you know? I mean, he has to feel so out of control. It's pitiful, in the sense of 'inspiring pity'.

Ellen Tigh is another one who's really grown on me, incidentally. I've liked her since early on, but it's only just recently that I've started actively finding her sympathetic.

Noooooo! Don't even think it!
Bad Sushi!

:)

I spent the better part of the hour reading and thinking about the ideas presented in these comments. Frack, this show is so thought provoking. The layers of this show are peeled away like an onion skin and sometimes tears get shed.

I don’t know where to begin, so I’ll hop in..

I remember Leoben being stuck on her right from the beginning - where did that come from?

Let’s go back to Flesh and Bone shall we? When Adama sends Starbuck to interrogate Leoben he tells her that he needs to send someone who cannot be easily manipulated. Kara makes a joke to break her uneasiness. Her face showed she was uncomfortable and unsure if she could do it. I found her dis-ease intriguing. I wondered what that was all about. BSG does nothing randomly! At that point, Adama should have sent Lee. Leoben’s charms don’t seem to work well on men.

Also, one of the things I’ve noticed about Starbuck is that she wears everything on her sleeve. Early in the series, Tigh is able to push her buttons so quickly; they are transparent. Not every one sees them but the ones who do can quickly manipulate her. She and Tigh are so completely fracked *because* they can see each others demons.

Leoben just looks through her despite her attempts to hide from him. He doesn’t have to know details about her, he can smell her brokenness. “You Stink” is a fantastic opening line for their interaction.

She doesn’t “stink” so bad now, I bet.

Do you think the interest Simon took in her in The Farm was because Leoben had flagged her for his special attentions?

There’s something about Starbuck that makes her interesting to the Cylons. I’m going to take a step and say it’s religious. I will take it a step further and theorize God favors Starbuck. She is integral to their survival and evolution. Six tried to kill her on sight. Simon aggressively wanted her to procreate. Boomer was a little fearful of her even though she was carrying *the* Hybrid. Starbuck softens on as time goes by. It’s a subtle transition, but it’s there. Pay close attention to her interactions with Helo after they return from Caprica.

Oh I almost forgot in Flesh and Bone, after Roslin shames her for torturing Leoben the first thing she plays is the religious card, anything to keep him alive and is mortified that Roslin throws him out the airlock. What’s going on there?

Layers..

Leoben being patient screams psychopath all the way to me. He's *so* obsessed he can't even being to consider the possibility of his vision being wrong. You just -know- that Starbuck is going to hold him in her arms some time in the future, tell him she loves him and it's going to be hideously wrong and not at all what he expects.

I have to disagree here. I don’t find him psychopathic, rather a little on the “whoa dude, that’s crazy side.” However, one thing her ‘incarceration” does is keep her out of the insurgency, which could be part of the larger picture. A clear example of this is Caprica Six’s obsession with Gaius. He is a virtual prisoner of the cylons as well. Is she psychopathic? While that is sort of his own doing, they could have replaced him with another human. He is important to them as is Starbuck.

God, I’ve written so much .Thanks for letting me jump in. Great thread!!

Hi! Welcome to the party.

I'm going to have to go back and watch Flesh and Bone because I have this memory of her going to see Leoben and him already knowing who she was and that being significant. I see his current attachment to her as being a result of their intense exchange.

What I loved about that episode (among many things) is that Starbuck goes from regarding Leoben as a thing, to seeing him as a person. She tries to save his life because she's come to understand that he is alive and he is a person and she values that.

I think back in Flesh and Bone he responded to her being intensely emotional, connecting with him and understanding him by deciding they have this mystical connection to each other.

I also agree with you on her status with the Cylons, I think the Cylons have Plans for Starbuck, I think she is someone on their radar, someone with a Purpose.

My take on Leoben is based on the fact that he has designed this little love-nest and is enacting a relationship at her and has been for four months. He talks to her about how she is going to come to her senses and realise she loves him and it speaks to me of freaky obsession.

Brainwashing usually involves things like changing a persons environment (CHECK), sleep patterns (CHECK), clothes (CHECK), food (CHECK), isolating them (CHECK), exposing them to indoctrination (CHECK).

He isn't relating to her as a person, he's relating to her as a thing. To me that makes the way he treats her really creepy.

This is BEAUTIFULLY ironic given the sequence in Flesh and Bone.

I have to watch Flesh and Bone again, there's so much there that relates here.

I have this memory of her going to see Leoben and him already knowing who she was and that being significant.

Yes, he knew who she was but not what she looked like. I've noticed that civilians don't know who significant people (to us) are. Leoben's reaction to Kara initially is one of genuine "I knew that was you but I wasn't sure."

connecting with him and understanding him by deciding they have this mystical connection to each other.

Is the initial mystical connection not the basis of love. Is it not possible for her to feel for his soul? Kara saw him as a person which could suggest she is capable of loving him. She prayed for him. I found that significant. Who else does she pray for on screen other than herself and now Kayce. That is not to say holding her hostage will result in her loving him. It only winds up with him dead. LOL

I agree that Kara's being brainwashed. That I have no doubt and he does relate to her as a "thing" which puts him on my crazee scale. Her isolation is for a bigger purpose than just brainwashing. I maintain that she is kept there for her own good because of the "plan." That sounds so evil *mwhahahaha*

No, you are not freaking me out! I only hope I am being coherent! BSG tends to make me babble!

The coolness of this is that it brings us back to what

vegetariansushi and I was on about earlier.

As people, the Cylons are very young and represent a wide range of human behaviours. What I see in Leoben is him getting so hooked on Starbuck's response to him in Flesh and Bone that he has fixated on her.

He's recognised there was a connection and has translated that in his head to there HAVING to be a connection now and always. Ironically, in trying to force it on her he's denying her personhood in exactly the same way she did, right down to the psychological torture.

Darn I love this show.

the Cylons are very young and represent a wide range of human behaviours.

he's denying her personhood in exactly the same way she did

In their youth they are still quite primal. Denying the Kara's personhood goes beyond Leobuck. In ordering the execution they don't see them as people but as things. At any moment, they could go back to the original plan and kill them all. Cavil's suggestion that reducing the human numbers to make them more manageable is scary.

Human's are things, pets even, and some of us Leoben really love our pets.

I totally love this show too, as well as this conversation.

I don't think Baltar being a prisoner of the Cylons is a function of Caprica_6's love for Baltar, I think it's a function of him being the President.

On Caprica_6's obsession with Baltar - I haven't seen them interacting with just each other since the Occupation so I've no idea how their current relationship stands. I would like to make a distinction between:

Baltar and Caprica_6
Baltar and Avatar Caprica_6
Baltar and Downloaded Caprica_6

I think they all have very different relationships.

Baltar and Caprica_6is now over two years old and was based on passionate physical love and a growing realisation on her part that she meant it, with all her heart. It was also based on lies.

Baltar and Avatar Caprica_6 was and still is an intensely passionate relationship between Baltar and a woman who knows no fear or doubt and is utterly committed to her vision of her God. She pushed Baltar every second they were together and also kept him sane and helped him survive. She wasn't trying to pretend he was someone she idealised, she knew who he was and what he was like.

Baltar and Downloaded Caprica_6: I've no idea where they stand with each other. The observation so far has only been in formal settings where she hasn't been all that personal and neither was he. Yes, she's trying to protect him.

I think Baltar's heart was broken when Pegasus_6 killed herself and the fact they've been relating to Avatars for a long time has got to get in the way of who they actually are relating to every time they talk. Both of them have changed enormously in the last couple of years.

And now I will stop and let you breath, apologies for obsessed and lengthy responses if you're now freaking out.

Whew, thank you for making the distinction between the Six's. One of the things I dig about Leoben is that I am not seeing multiple versions of him at the moment. It makes him a little easier to get a handle on.

The Six Models.

Is not Caprica6 and Downloaded6 one in the same? That is to say the Six in the miniseries is the same 6 that downloaded in "Downloaded" Omg, I'm dizzy! Thus this is the same 6 he also visualizes in his head. How is it that as soon as Caprica6 shows up the 6 in his head goes away but when she is killed she is there in a flash? Are they not the same on some level.

Baltar loved Gina, Pegasus6, because of Caprica/Avatar6. I can't really explain that one, at the moment. My brain is still spinning trying to manage the number of 6's in my head. LOL

Where ARE the other Leoben anyway?

My thoughts on the Six Models...

I'm making this distinction because of the sheer freakin' complexity of their non-linear relationship.

Baltar and Caprica_6 were together on Caprica for an unspecified period of time during which she was a Cylon agent. He thought she was a fabulous lay and she was falling in love with him.

Baltar and Avatar_6. Firstly I have no idea what Avatar_6 actually is. We’ve established she isn’t a chip, that she comes and goes and that she has knowledge that is not available to Baltar’s subconscious (the Cylon device in Galactica and the baby). To me this points to some sort of spirit/avatar – possibly created during the blast on Caprica. I’d also happily go for her being a Cylon God spirit guide that –happens- to look like her. Hell, I’ll go for any whacky theory about now.

They have been together since the attack on Caprica. She is NOT Caprica_6 despite being pretty darn close in personality. For one thing, she doesn’t develop, Baltar is growing and changing all over the place but Avatar_6 remains firms on all counts.

Yes it was interesting that Avatar_6 turned up the moment Downloaded_6 was shot. However, I’m not convinced that Avatar_6’s appearances are conditional on other 6 models not being there in person. He asked Avatar_6 to go away for a while when Pegasus_6 was around and she did. I don’t know if she, Baltar, or some other factor controls it.

Baltar and Downloaded_6 have been apart since Caprica_6 died on Caprica. Yes she is the same woman who died in the blast but she is also a woman who has had a profound realisation about her mission. She has also been relating to Avatar_Baltar whose smooth confidence is nothing like the Baltar we’ve grown to know and pity.

There appears to be no continuity of consciousness between Avatar Caprica_6 and Downloaded_6 as witnessed by her waking up believing Baltar was dead.

This invariably leaves me speculating on what/how Cylon consciousness works and how come they share some memories but not others.

Where ARE the other Leoben anyway?

I dunno and for right now, that works for me! LOL

Please keep making the distinctions cos God knows I *can't.*

There appears to be no continuity of consciousness between Avatar Caprica_6 and Downloaded_6 as witnessed by her waking up believing Baltar was dead.

It seems I need to revisit Downloaded again. The attack was meant to wipe out humanity. I would assume she'd think he was dead since the majority of humans were killed. By the same token, did Sharon know Adama was alive or not when she downloaded? There's all sorts of holes in the downloading I don't get. Like part of the connection is lost during the process.

This invariably leaves me speculating on what/how Cylon consciousness works and how come they share some memories but not others.

I'd say each of them has a core memory which then becomes individualized as the particular model experiences life. I believe all the 6 models feel love for Gaius to varying degrees but it is based on their experience with him. I suppose Caprica 6 is the QUeen Bee over the other 6 models.

I'm bathering again..LOL

I think Caprica_6 and Downloaded_6 are the same consciousness, I don't think they know Avatar_6 exists and I certainly don't think they share any knowledge.

I make the distinction between Caprica_6 and Downloaded_6 because Downloaded_6 had Avatar_Baltar - not to be confused with the real thing - and due to life experience is a different, older person.

As for poor Baltar, it's been literally YEARS since Baltar has seen her and he's been having a passionate relationship with Avatar_6 and trying to have one with Pegasus_6 in between.

I think the downloading process is 100%. Caprica_6 had no access to knowledge of events after her death on Caprica. Whoever her Avatar is, it isn't in contact with her.

Galactica_Sharon was shot in Resistance - Adama was still in a coma at this point. She didn't know.

Baltar and Avatar Caprica_6 was and still is an intensely passionate relationship between Baltar and a woman who knows no fear or doubt and is utterly committed to her vision of her God. She pushed Baltar every second they were together and also kept him sane and helped him survive. She wasn't trying to pretend he was someone she idealised, she knew who he was and what he was like.

Have we seen Avatar Caprica_6 and Downloaded Caprica_6 in proximity?

It seemed to me, that we only saw Avatar C6 after downloaded C6 was shot.

Okay, you've already noticed this. I knew I should have read ahead before replying.

I think it quite significant that we didn't see Avatar C6 until Downloaded C6 had left the building.

We also haven't heard anything more about Downloaded C6's Baltar Avatar.

I wonder if the Baltar Avatar will be present after another download or not.

I have an urge to shout "Field Too Large" or something.

I want more data on D6 and what happened to Avatar_Baltar.
I want more data on Baltar and what happens to Avatar_C6.

I do think the avatars are more than subconscious manifestations, I base this solely on there being two of them (repeatable) and AC6 knowing about the baby before they knew about Caprica_Sharon being pregnant (access to knowledge).

I also agree they haven't appeared simultaneously with their live counterparts.

Agreed on the more knowledge factor. Possibly some sort of mental link between the models whilst they're all very alike, which fades as they each get their own personality.

Or not.

Anyhow, here's the next question ...

Have we seen AC6 since DC6 appeared in S02E18?

ie, was AC6 in 19 & 20?

Or was the first we saw of AC6 since then after DC6 was shot?

prk.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant by mental link.

I don't think Cylon to Cylon mental links are in evidence. I mean this in both a spiritual and technical sense. There appears to be no continuity of knowledge between models other than the initial 'stamp' (mental) and they are indistinguishable from humans and therefore can't update each other via info-dumps (technical).

I do think there is a possible mental link between Baltar and C6.

When AC6 first appeared we were all confused, was she a chip or was she a manifestation of Baltar's conscience?

Baltar getting a scan and confirming there was no chip put an end to the first theory.

AC6 predicting the birth a Cylon/Human child; knowledge that Baltar has no access to; says to me that she is a little more than Baltar's subconscious.

Theory: AC6 is C6/DC6 having an out of body experience while waiting to be downloaded and for some reason C6/DC6 doesn't recall a damn thing when she is 'alive'.

This would explain:
· Why AC6 is only seen when C6/DC6 is 'dead'.
· How AC6 can know things that Baltar does not.

It does not explain:
· Why Avatar_Baltar exists.
· Why AC6 has such a different personality to DC6

BSG S3 3x01 & 3x02 thoughts...

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